Blame, entitlement and the adoption chasm

I am inspired by Dawn – or at least the commentary on this post of hers. I am not sure I can cover everything that is in my head in one sitting. I may never make it. But bear with me.

In particular, the comment from akeeyu grabbed my attention.

You know, not all infertile couples adopt, so railing against infertile women is kind of…eh.

Also, isn’t anybody else’s head tilting like the RCA dog’s? All this talk of infertile women feeling entitled to everybody’s babies, and so little talk about infertile men, or infertile couples. Just women.

Men are so rarely included in well… anything baby related. Admittedly, we do not get pregnant. But neither do adoptive moms, so what is with this whole mystic mother thing?

Our judgemental, misogynistic, misandrist society is to blame, that is what.  Because a womanly woman is expected to want to be a mother. And a manly man is expected not to give a crap about the progeny, just about the act of creating the progeny, and all the practice involved. For a man to be the driving force behind having kids is practically unheard of. Modern men may stand stoically by in the delivery room instead of smoking in the cafeteria while we wait for a nurse to bring us the news that we have a son/daughter, but in most other respects we are still cave men when it comes to babies.

And yet the irony of it all is – the presence of a man (or lack thereof) is often the driving force behind voluntary adoption.

The chasm between men and women is just as important as the chasm between adoptive and birth parents, and in both cases it is the child who falls into the chasm while we yell over their head.

And now for something completely different – blame.

Here is a little anecdote. Several years ago I was involved in an automobile wreck. I was not the driver, and the driver of the vehicle I was passenger in was not at fault either. Some tiny old lady in an enormous SUV decided to pull out right in front of us, and my left leg was smashed to pieces in the impact. I went through months of painful surgery and rehab because of the stupid bitch, and you bet I was bitter, because I had NO control over the situation and it was clearly not my fault. I would have felt better if she would at least have said sorry, but legal liability and all – I understand why she never did.

Some months before that, a friend of mine was involved in a similar wreck – except in this case, she was the one who pulled out in front of someone. Because she was my friend, my initial reaction was to ensure that she was OK, reassure her that she was not a terrible person for causing an accident, and console her over the loss of her car. I gave not the slightest thought to the poor sap who smashed into the side of her and for all I know could have died.

Now that I have been the poor sap (or at least in the poor sap’s car) I often wonder what happened to that person. Being put in that position flicked a light on.

So, trying to place myself in the shoes of an infertile couple…

In most cases, infertility just happens. It is not because of anything you did. You are just a passenger on this ride. I can see how you would be bitter. And then to be demonized for wanting a child by those who can have children but voluntarily gave them up and are now whining about it? Well sheesh, I can see how you would not have a whole lot of sympathy.  When you place a baby for adoption, you are ostensibly in control of your vehicle. You may be hampered by a back seat driver (family member/priest/social worker etc) telling you what you should do, and in the heat of the moment you may take that advice, but bottom line it was your choice. Even before that, getting in the car was your choice (you had sex). So yeah, I actually can see where the entitlement comes from.

And on that bombshell, I am going to get coffee. May finish this later.

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97 Responses to “Blame, entitlement and the adoption chasm”

  1. As always, love it when you write things. Hope you’ll continue, cuz I want to see where you take us.

  2. I agree with all of this. But on your comment about backseat drivers and still being in control:

    What if the driver at fault was basing their decision on inaccurate information given by a reputable/reliable source? IE: The driver’s Ed instructor informed them that Red meant Go and Green meant Stop?

    Also, there’s a difference in understanding another person’s plight and seeing their point of view. However, as a general rule, no one in this life is entitled to anything save to be alive. (As a fundamental truth at least). One could argue the basic entitlement to food, shelter and right to work. But I don’t think anyone, anywhere is entitled to anything beyond that, least of all a child.

  3. “When you place a baby for adoption, you are ostensibly in control of your vehicle. You may be hampered by a back seat driver (family member/priest/social worker etc) telling you what you should do, and in the heat of the moment you may take that advice, but bottom line it was your choice.”

    Here’s a rhetorical question for ya:

    At what point do we say a woman is informed enough and UNinfluenced enough that she may make the decision to relinquish?

  4. Interesting how one line seemed to catch alot of attention. It caught mine.

    You may be hampered by a back seat driver (family member/priest/social worker etc) telling you what you should do, and in the heat of the moment you may take that advice, but bottom line it was your choice.

    Do you refer to men? Young girls? BSE moms? What exactly do you mean by this? Do you not beileve coercion exists or is that what you mean by the backseat driver and oh, gosh darn, you silly hormmonal pregnant girl, you just werent strong enough to fight them powers that be.

    Naturally, I winced at this statement, (and I know you know my story) as I struggle with what choice I had when I was locked up, had paretns who signed a promissory note and a babybroker threaten to sue me.

    I agree I HAD a choice but will have to add the notation that I was too young, scared, hormonal, intimidated and coerced into exercising that choice.

  5. Meant to add, do the choices MEN, first fathers have, differ from those women have considering women are carrying the child that is being lusted over by society.

    Me thinks, yes. But I would love to hear what you thinks.

  6. thanksgivingmom Says:

    I think sometimes in adoption, the “backseat driver” takes their hands and covers the eyes of the driver. Yes, the driver (bmom or bdad) is still driving, hands still on the wheel, but they can’t see anything in front of them. I think that the “accident” can be the fault of that third party. Maybe it’s not in all placements, but maybe it is in some….

  7. Why do you use the word “ostensibly” when you follow that up by stating in an unqualified manner that there was choice ?

  8. Well, *I* still don’t see where the entitlement come from, no matter how innocent we victims of infertility are and how much it sucks and what kind of choices sexually-active people do or do not have when it comes to abortion, adoption, or parenting. The desire to adopt, sure. But the feeling of actual entitlement to “get” the baby of our choosing, no.

    But apart from that, the recent conversations at Dawn’s, Shannon’s, and this blog have set me thinking about why so *few* women – especially young women – end up having their children adopted despite the pressure and coercion described by so many of you blogging first moms. Adoption is still very much the minority decision made, after parenting or abortion. What is it now, like 2%? 5%? I don’t remember the figure. But it’s very small.

    I think of this particularly in the context of my own experience living in an area with a tremendously high teen and early-20s pregnancy rate. We had no access to contraception outside of a family doctor (no Planned Parenthood there until 1990), a very conservative political and religious environment all around us, and the general late-1980s/early-90s proclivity towards having sex… for love, out of boredom, because we were high or drunk, coercion or rape, etc. We did have an abortion provider in town once a week, and I know a fair number of my friends paid him a visit at least once. But of the high school and college girls in that town that I knew who did not want or were unable to obtain an abortion, the vast majority became single mothers — with or without support from their families or boyfriends.

    And they were generally given a lot of crap for that, because it was that kind of place. You couldn’t win, except by “doing it right” or by getting out. Recent observations of the area (right south of the Laura Ingalls Memorial HWY area, for those who have had the misfortune to travel that anti-abortion propoganda-strewn byway) lead me to believe the vibe ain’t more supportive out there in the New Millenium.

    I’m not looking to play Blame the Victim. Those of you who’ve been f**ked over by adoption coercion – particularly outright illegal practices like Suz’s experience – are plenty able to speak for yourselves, and it’s my job to listen. But more pregnant people have made another decision, which is where I think Brad may be going with the discussion on choice and backseat drivers and all.

    And Suz, I’m perpetually pissed that none of the adults in your family consulted a legal aid lawyer when hit with that promissory note. You were clearly not in a position to do that, but have any of them ever ‘fessed up as to why they didn’t contact a legal aid or other service that could have advised them without charge?

  9. “Well, *I* still don’t see where the entitlement come from”
    I think that bitterness, resentment and entitlement are inextricably entwined.

    To put it another way, if you feel entitled and you don’t get what you think you deserve, you feel bitter.
    Only some people get it ass backwards.

  10. Mei-Ling Says:

    “To put it another way, if you feel entitled and you don’t get what you think you deserve, you feel bitter.”

    Gee, Kippa, no wonder so many adoptees are dismissed these days.

    They’re just ‘bitter.’ 😉

  11. I get your point, though mine was a bit different.
    I was referring to people who can’t have their own children and who feel bitter that others (sometimes people they consider to be less deserving than themselves) can.
    There’s a world of difference between *feeling* entitled and *being* entitled.
    Adopted people deserve to know their origins. It’s their right.

    Infertile people, OTOH, don’t have a ‘right’ to other people’s children.
    Now, children who really need homes, that’s one thing. People who want to adopt should be able to supply that need, and in doing so satisfy their own desire to parent.
    But if those children have the possibility of being raised safely within their natural family, that’s where they should remain.

  12. My lack of empathy for so-called “infertile” women stems from the fact that most of them are not infertile due to a medical condition. They are merely OLD – they postponed childbearing and now they can’t understand why their fertility is diminished. Gee, they don’t call it a biological clock for nothing!

  13. Why does being 35 or over before you start trying to have a child deserve less empathy than having PCOS or no viable sperm? Lots of people who wait until they’re past prime pregnancy-achievement age do so because they had the maturity to recognize that they were not going to do parenthood responsibly during the time when it was physiologically easiset to have children. Maybe they didn’t want to be single parents or bring children into a dysfunctional relationship or life situation, and didn’t meet a quality partner or get their situation together until they were in their 30s or 40s. Maybe they were like me and my partner, and had been raised in abusive homes and needed extra time to deal with the fallout from that. Maybe they’re like my brother, who has always wanted to be a father but who is just now stabilizing himself after a long period of untreated mental illness. People have lots of reasons for delaying parenthood.

    I don’t think people who start trying to conceive beyond their mid-30s should be shocked if they’re unable to get a pregnancy going. But the mythology that they’re all reproductivle geriatric Yuppies who prioritized BMW acquisition and now just want an Accessory Child to round off their lives is every bit as offensive to me as assuming all parents who have their children adopted do so because they just want to continue their irresponsible party-’til-dawn lifestyles without the burden of a child. Those stereotypes serve no one.

    I don’t need or want pity for our own inability to become pregnant, but I also don’t need to deal with anyone’s preconceived judgements on why I waited until I was 35 and my husband was 40 before we took a shot at pregnancy. I’ll always be glad we waited, for the sake of any child we might have had prior to that. Plus who knows why we haven’t been able to get pregnant? According to our tests, we should have been able to start a whole basketball team — there’s so much that the current state of infertility medicine can’t account for physiologically.

  14. And Ha! I just realized the hidden joke in the “To hell with the Elderly Infertile” assumption, given the first half of Brad’s post – it’s basically an F. U. to women, once again. Men can father children long after women become physiologically incapable of pregnancy, so really it’s only women who are at fault for infertility related to delaying childbearing. Never mind her reasons or even if she became pregnant and/or gave birth earlier (what’s that figure on seconday infertility as experienced by first moms?) – no empathy for the woman who didn’t take advantage of “what God gave her” when she wasn’t ready for it.

    Can’t speak for men and fathers, but I will always maintain that infertile women and women experiencing crisis pregnancies and their fallout have tons in common with each other. The only woman who gets out of reproductive judgement is the one who becomes pregnant when she wants to be, and doesn’t become pregnant when she doesn’t want to be.

  15. Nice one, Lula.

  16. Lula, don’t blame me, blame mother nature, she’s the one who makes the rules about declining fertility at older ages.

  17. Um, I think you’ve missed the point, Maybe.
    It’s not Lula who is doing the ‘blaming’ here.

  18. Thanks, Kippa.

    There’s no blame to be assigned for our infertility, so I assign none. That’s pretty easy for me, since I haven’t experienced infertility as a huge affront to my self-image — it’s been a bummer, but not the crushing blow some other individuals find it to be. Maybe I never could have become pregnant, ever. Maybe we could have had a baby if we’d started as soon as we met, when I was 28 (and nuts) and he was 33 (and only beginning to experience life without nuttiness). Maybe we’ll get pregnant tomorrow – who knows? I’m comfortable with the reproductive and parenthood decisions I’ve made to date, which include long periods of celibacy, a late start at the attempted baby-making, an exceedingly brief foray into the squicky world of infertilty treatment, a year-long dance with a very cool adoption agency’s homestudy process, and our current decision to live childfree in order to help raise our nephews and keep putting maximum energy into the work we both love. We’ve had a lot of options available to us throughout our lives, and we’ve also had the benefit of understanding early on that you *don’t* always get to have what you want. We’re going to be fine, regardless of whatever judgements people want to put on us (with or without ever knowing us intimately enough to do so, I might add).

    But the point is, everyone has a story. A person who makes a unilateral statement about having no sympathy for people who are just “too old” (which is remarkably difficult to determine, actually. You have to get blood tests and egg tests and all sorts of other junk done before your over-the-hillness can be medically determined as the reason for infertility) is, in my book, the same knid of knob who’d says “Suz might have a legitimate gripe because she was swindled by a baby broker, but the woman who swallowed all the B.S. about how adoption would push the Motherhood re-set button and let her sail off into the sunset after handing the baby off should just shut up”.

    Perhaps Maybe feels that way about first moms’ stories too. I don’t know.

    You can have compassion for a person’s pain, even as you hold them accountable for bad behavior arising out of that pain. If I was acting out anger, grief and bitterness in a way that dehumanized other women who can get pregnant, I hope someone would say “Gee Lula, I’m so sorry you had all this undeserved sh*t to deal with that took you a long time to heal from. That’s really awful, and I’m sorry for how that may have contributed to you losing out on being able to get pregnant.” I also hope they’d follow it up with “But get a grip, cuz you’re spreading the Ugly around in seriously craptastic ways” if need be, but that’s the point – the two can coexist. Compassion for pain *can* go hand in hand with accountability. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

  19. Sorry, Lula, I’m not trying to attack you. I just get very frustrated with the endless stories of the perfect (infertile) couple preying on young women to get a baby. The agenices use their tale of infertility to make a young mother feel obligated to give up the baby, so I get easily irritated when the issue of infertility arises.

    It is not the responsibility of any woman to give birth to satisfy another woman’s desire to be a mother. Unfortunately, the agenices (and many infertile women) don’t see it that way.

  20. Cindy Sue Says:

    Hi! Not all adoptions happen as a matter of choice. I was literally forced into relinquishment and denied all related human rights. I had no choice in the pregnancy either (rape). Papers were forged and my firstborn daughter was taken immediately after birth and I was heavily drugged and left alone in a room for day’s. She was “sold” to an infertal couple who turned out not to be infertal afterall. I heard nothing about her for 22 years. I was 15 years old when she was born and I had NOTHING to do with her adoption. It was forcibly committed against my will by every adult I encountered, my parents, my pastors, my doctors, my teachers, social workers. Who were they to presume my daughters and my lifepath?

  21. Maybe, I totally understand that and support the anger about “infertility baiting”. Compassion doesn’t in any way lead to obligation in reproduction, and whatever pain I or any other person dealing with infertility may feel should never, EVER be the concern of those who are trying to make decisions about parenting vs. adoption. Just as it’s not the job of adoptees to fill a void or “heal” their adoptive parents!

    Because I don’t have moral or ethical objections to abortion, I get just as angry over the use of Poor Infertile People’s Pain to sawy women away from terminating a pregnancy if that’s what they believe is in their best interest. Adoption isn’t a substitute for abortion, and I get pretty sick of hearing it presented that way, to pregnant women and to infertile people/those desiring to adopt alike.

    Cindy Sue, I’m so terriibly sad for what was done to you and to your daughter. The fertility status of the adoptive parents doesn’t even figure into such criminal abuse – ithe situation wouldn’t have been made any less horrific by their infertility if that had been the actual case. I can only hope that the methods that agency or entity used to procure children were unknown to the people who participated on the adoptive-parent side, and that the procurors have since been shut down and convicted. That wouldn’t provide restitution to you or your daughter, but at least it would prevent others from being victimized by those particular individuals.

  22. Cindy Sue Says:

    Lula, thanks for your sympathy. The adoptive parents obsessive need to have a child, then and there, created a “market” for my child. If there was no market I may have been presented with other options? Underage mothers need court appointed advocates, someone to guard the rights of mother and child.

    The only people convicted in my case were my daughter and I. I was treated as a “birthanimal” (Mother monkey’s are drugged prior to their babies being stolen)and my daughter was sold into slavery. A slave to a strangers “desire” for a child. The adoptive parents knew my situation and choose to “purchase” my baby anyway. I never received any paperwork of any kind, only one polaroid photo of my baby girl. I have no idea to this day who the agency even was!

    If you want to help needy children then find a way to preserve the mother-infant bond. Is adoption today about helping children or has it twisted into a womens need to have what she wants?

    We needed help, what we received was a life sentence of pain,separation and unresolved trauma. I believe adoption as it exists today in America is deeply based in covetousness. Which is sin . . . sin leads to DEATH. Check out the stats on adoption and murder. 16% of the 2,000+ serial killers in US are ADOPTED! The adoption “social experiment” from the 1940 thrugh today is a FAILURE!!! The only winners are the agencies $$$ and the adoptive parents via getting their WANTS met. Mothers and their children NEED each other, regardless of age and social status. If we can shell out tens of thousands to procure a child, why not give that money to help the mother/infant bond to succeed? I can tell you why . . . selfish me-based wannabe mothers . . . that’s why. They have built a fake-family on the back of an oppressed original mothers unimaginable pain, and the childs too. NO MOTHER WANTS TO LOSE HERE CHILD . . . STOP THE MYTHS . . . STOP ADOPTION . . . STOP CREATING A BILLION DOLLAR MARKET FOR OUR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!

  23. I’ll direct you back over to Dawn’s blog for more than I can ever say on the topic of demand and markets and coveteousness. The post that Brad has linked at the beginning of this post is where we started – you may well have read over there already. I won’t try to argue with you or anyone else who has lived your experience, but I personally have benefitted from the conversation over there and by knowing adoptive moms like Shannon, who is a good friend IRL. You probably know her from various blogs and boards too.

    I consider myself lucky in that both my husband and I knew a great deal about the BSE and knew the stories of family and friends who’d placed children for adoption (as well as those who had become “illegitimate parents” or who’d had abortions) as far back as our teens. My MIL would have likely become a BSE mother at age 20 if her children’s father hadn’t married her (the marriage failed miserably, but it did enable her to keep her kids). I chose to work in various branches of the reproductive justice field from the age of 19 onward, and will continue in some aspect or another for the rest of my life — I love the work, and the work is much needed. Re-creating adoption as being about “families for children instead of children for families” always has and always will be part of that for me. Having gone through the homestudy process myself was a good education, and one that I hope will serve me well when I talk with both PAPs and pregnant women about the complexities of adoption and why publications like “Birth Mother, Good Mother: Her Story of Heroic Redemption” suck.

    I’ll say this, though: Most PAPs don’t know jack when they go into adoption. They hear the same puppies-and-kitties fluff that pregnant women hear, at a time when they want very much to believe the newbite about adoption being a win-win-win situation that benefits everyone involved. Just as the desire to hear that message can lead a pregnant woman to make decisions that end up not serving her or her child’s best interest, so can that message lead PAPs into trusting “professionals” who are not so much interested in serving children as they are in making $$.

  24. Cindy Sue Says:

    This country carries the deep burden of corporate adoption guilt. Guilt that is stubbornly ignored and covered over by talk, talk, talk, justified and even sanctified. I don’t give a rip about this org or that post . . . Young frightened vulnerable mothers are somehow expected to overcome church, state and corporate america. I’m not trying to start a bitch session. But I am . . .

    SHOUTING at the TOP of MY LUNGS with MY voice. I have a VOICE!!!! STOP THE OPPRESSION. I am SHOUTING “STOP IT”. I am shouting over the the guilt, over the lies, over the excusses. Just STOP. Stop making adoption an exceptable option, stop making it justifiable. STOP. PLEASE STOP. I am BEGGING STOP. Return the children to their fathers and mothers and STOP! STOP calling it adoption. STOP pouring billions into this hideous industry. STOP harding your heart. STOP. Turn around and go in the other direction. STOP the myths. STOP the disregard of human rights. STOP the lies directed at original mothers. STOP creating foreign adoption markets by “saving children” in China. Maybe China would stop selling their kids if Americans would stop being willing to purchase them!!!!

    START helping mothers and their infants succeed. START really considering others. START caring for children more than yourself. START respecting the mother/infant bond. START seeing through anothers eye’s. START more research into infertility. START financially supporting young vulernable mothers. START coming up with new ideas to this age old problem. START calling it human slavery and kidnapping. START caring for both mother and infant, offering assistance to young families to get on their feet. Nothing is immpossible. START caring for the thousand of unwanted, sick, drug addictied, abandoned children lanquishing in fostercare and orphanages.

    Can humanity find a humane solution? The current “solution” is not humane and not a positive solution. It is rather like Hitler’s solution IMHO. It hurts adoptees and original mothers beyond any wouldbe adoptor’s comprehension.

    What will the future look back and see? Will the “adoption policies” of the 20th and 21st century’s reveal an evolved society? Or one caving in on itself. i.e. serial killer stats. Adoption is a failure, it always was. I already know there is a better way. START creating CHANGE today. Would we have an african american president today if MLK had not SHOUTED yesterday?

  25. Mei-Ling Says:

    ” STOP creating foreign adoption markets by “saving children” in China. Maybe China would stop selling their kids if Americans would stop being willing to purchase them!!!! ”

    If the gov’t suddenly said “Female babies are acceptable” one day, infants would still be abandoned.

    You’re looking at a historical cultural preference, not a system that “just” developed within the past decade.

  26. Cindy Sue Says:

    Go save them all. Just don’t buy them and take home a barbie.

  27. OMG Lots of response on this one! Very interesting post and I like it. I also like the new layout :).

  28. Am I allowed to say it? Is the agency always or the adoptive family always the bad guy? Aren’t there some people who are educated and informed about adoption but still want to go forward? Am I wrong to think that even if the political climate was more supportive of mothers, that for some people adoption would still be a good adoption? Am I also wrong to think that not every agency is seeing dollar signs when they see a child?

  29. When you are a junkie you have a choice to get clean and get a job so you can provide for your child rather than let the mother of your child lose him to adoption. I often wonder what it was that stopped you getting clean so that you could step up to the plate and be a father for your son rather than be passive and let him go to strangers.

  30. Michelle Says:

    Kim, just as the dealer doesn’t want to lose his customer and will keep supplying drugs to keep the junkie addicted, an adoption agency will do whatever it takes to make sure its pregnant customer surrenders her child. In both situations the cusotmer is weak and vulnerable, and that of course is when the pressure, manipulation and coercive tactics work best.

  31. ” When you place a baby for adoption, you are ostensibly in control of your vehicle. You may be hampered by a back seat driver (family member/priest/social worker etc) telling you what you should do, and in the heat of the moment you may take that advice, but bottom line it was your choice.”

    Sorry, but i have to disagree with you on this. Most women who lose children to adoption do not feel like they are in control of the situation or “took advice in the heat of the moment.” Most of us felt positively powerless. If you are driving, no matter who is in the back seat, you can always stop, turn around, accelerate, or what-not. You are also an equal in power to those around you.

    “Almost everyone believes that on some level, [mothers] made a choice to give their babies away. Here, I argue that adoption is rarely about mothers’ choices; it is, instead, about the abject choicelessness of some resourceless women.” – Rickie Solinger, 2001

    The better analogy would be rape, especially as they are similar situations involving violation and coercion. And a coerced decision is not a decision at all. This includes “influenced” decisions where the person “influencing” has statistics from studies showing that they will increase the chance you will surrender if they do certain things to you. Of course, they never tell you about those things (see my latest blog post for some of the quotes from these studies). Another analogy would be a high-pressure salesman where you get NO opportunity for a “cooling off period” where you can get your money back once you find they sold you a bill of goods.

    This is not like being “at the wheel”. Most surrenders happen because of the mother being deprived of the resources she requires to raise her child. Financial coercion, in other words, which other nations work to prevent. A human rights violation. If we had the financial and social power we needed, we would never have lost our babies to adoption (do millionaire lose babies to adoption?). Most of us loved and wanted to keep our babies, but often felt we did not have the necessary resources to do so w/o harming our child, OR we were outright coerced by other methods. All in all, there is no choice, just as in rape, anything other than “yes” even at the last minute means “No” and it is rape.

    There is also the fact that a woman has to recover from birth first and all the hormonal and physical changes of that event before making any decision, and most women considering adoption are not given this opportunity but instead are made to believe that “at-birth adoption” is best or even necessary. Back in the 1940s before the industry arose and became profitable, it was heavily stressed that the mother should take her time (weeks or even months) if she required them.

  32. All this boils down to personal responsibility. People have choices in life. When one has sex they know there’s a 99.9% chance they may become pregnant. It baffles me to this day to see how many people “still” don’t use birth control. No one places a gun to your head and forces you to “procreate” so an infertile couple can become parents-that’s a choice the bparents made when they slept together.

    And for entitlement, the only entitlement I’ve hear is from some, not all, birthparents. I hear all the time ” I’m” the mother ; “I want” or “I’m the victim”. No aparent that I know feels entitled to a child; they maybe be more prepared to raise a child, but not entitled.

    I think what I’m reading is a lot of resentment and jealousy from bparents who regret getting pregnant and weren’t able to ( or didn’t want to) parent at that time. Also, I keep hear “young birthmoms”, today’s bmom is older and usually has a child or children already so she’s not some damsel in distress. She’s an older woman( 20+) who has a wide range of choices ( which includes signing the TPR paper)

    To deny that you ( the bparent) aren’t responsible for the situation you got yourself into ( unless you were raped) means your ‘e not being responsible or accountable for your actions.

  33. Mei-Ling Says:

    “When one has sex they know there’s a 99.9% chance they may become pregnant.”

    Actually, Anon, my friend who has done tons of psychology research says that there is a 20% change of becoming pregnant during sex.

    If there was a 99.0% chance like you say, then hoo boy a lot of college students must have a lot of secret children that they’ve been producing from those nights where they had sex with their boyfriends!

  34. Cindy Sue Says:

    UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS

    Article 2.
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

    Article 4.
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

    Article 5.
    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    Article 8.
    Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

    Article 15.
    (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
    (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

    Article 22.
    Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

    Article 23.

    (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

    Article 25.
    (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

  35. bluestokking Says:

    Anon – Are you for real or just an happy adoptee or entitled adopter? Do you know anything about coercion? Baby brokering? Maternity “homes”? Law of supply and demand? How infertile adopters pay big dollars to get babies and brokers do unethical things to get them for sale? Girls who went away by Fessler? Your comments might be upsetting to some if they werent so woefully ignorant.

    You are absolutely right that women AND men should be held responsible for the children they produce. We should also be responsible to our children and not use them as objects to be bought and sold to fill the pockkets of baby sellers or desparate infertile couples.

  36. “Anon – Are you for real or just an happy adoptee or entitled adopter? Do you know anything about coercion? Baby brokering? Maternity “homes”? Law of supply and demand? How infertile adopters pay big dollars to get babies and brokers do unethical things to get them for sale? Girls who went away by Fessler? Your comments might be upsetting to some if they werent so woefully ignorant.

    You are absolutely right that women AND men should be held responsible for the children they produce. We should also be responsible to our children and not use them as objects to be bought and sold to fill the pockkets of baby sellers or desparate infertile couples.”

    Bluestocking

    Although your soap box speech is admirable, the facts remain: personal responsibility is the bottom line. Again, NO ONE put a gun to your head and “forced” you to procreate for a infertile couple, nor did they “force” you to sign the TPR paper. It always amazes me how people use the words “coercion” and “unethical” when many bmoms KNOW who the fathers are and REFUSE to name him or when the bfather threatens to leave the bmom if she doesn’t sign( and she signs the TPR to”keep” him) or when the bfather doesn’t want to step to plate and support his child.

    And about responsibility to the child, anytime you have sex there is a possibility to get pregnant. Anything that you do has consequents ( supply & demand),and if you can’t afford or don’t want to be a parent, be sexual responsible or step-up to the plate and be a parent to your child. Again all I’m reading is JEALOUSY and ENVY towards aparents who had nothing to do with the situation YOU got yourself into. All these excuses are cop-outs!

  37. bluestokking Says:

    Anon – Oy. Okay. So you are an adoptive parent. ‘Nuff said.

  38. Mei-Ling Says:

    Anon: So you don’t believe coercion exists? Just because there’s no physical appearance of a gun doesn’t mean the mothers actually had a choice.

    How about in China, where mothers got pregnant and had to abandon their children? There is no gun being placed to their heads – there is a government fine beyond all logic and reason consisting of thousands of dollars. If they have more than one child, or if their ONLY child happens to be a female and they keep the child, there is a jail penalty. There is even a death penalty. Still convinced that just because there is “no gun” that mothers always have a choice?

    “And about responsibility to the child, anytime you have sex there is a possibility to get pregnant.”

    That’s why people use birth control. Newsflash: It doesn’t ALWAYS work. If we ALL stopped having sex out of fear that we MIGHT become pregnant every time, then we may as well just all ban sex and reproductive rights until we are in our mid-thirties, when fertility is on the decline.

    Ever had sex, anon? I ask you this because women are not in the right frame of mind to be thinking of parental rights and responsibilities in the middle of sexual intercourse. Their focus is on the pleasure – not if there MIGHT be a pregnancy. They make the decision to have sex – yes, but they cannot control if they create a fetus. Birth control doesn’t have work. Taking medication and pills doesn’t always work.

    So what do you suggest? Ban sex? Or ban parenthood?

  39. “Anon – Oy. Okay. So you are an adoptive parent. ‘Nuff said.

    Bluestockking:

    Actually I’m an adoptee who be lives in owning up to “personal reasonability”

  40. Anon: (do you have a blog, btw?) Are you familiar with the BSE?

  41. bluestokking Says:

    Oh, an adoptee. Are you in reunion? What year were you born? Were you rejected in reunion? Do you know anything about your natural mother and father? Where is the animosity coming from? Did they not own up to you? Is that your reason for demanding women who are forced to surrender their children (BSE or other) own up to the crimes of others?

    Curious, how exactly do you think a young girl, sent away by her family, drugged and tied in restraints so her child could be taken from her should have owned up to her child? Are you not aware these things happened or are you not capable of comprehending them? Perhaps it is too painful for you? Completely understandable if that is the case.

  42. Mei-Ling Says:

    Maybe anon just doesn’t care? O.o Or hasn’t deemed it important enough to find out? Or thinks that there is a way to get out of ANY circumstance if you’re willing enough? etc?

  43. How about in China, where mothers got pregnant and had to abandon their children? There is no gun being placed to their heads – there is a government fine beyond all logic and reason consisting of thousands of dollars. If they have more than one child, or if their ONLY child happens to be a female and they keep the child, there is a jail penalty. There is even a death penalty. Still convinced that just because there is “no gun” that mothers always have a choice?

    Nice try, this is the U.S. If you want to parent you can.It maybe hard but IT”S doa able.

    “And about responsibility to the child, anytime you have sex there is a possibility to get pregnant.”
    That’s why people use birth control. Newsflash: It doesn’t ALWAYS work. If we ALL stopped having sex out of fear that we MIGHT become pregnant every time, then we may as well just all ban sex and reproductive rights until we are in our mid-thirties, when fertility is on the decline.
    Ever had sex, anon? I ask you this because women are not in the right frame of mind to be thinking of parental rights and responsibilities in the middle of sexual intercourse. Their focus is on the pleasure – not if there MIGHT be a pregnancy. They make the decision to have sex – yes, but they cannot control if they create a fetus. Birth control doesn’t have work. Taking medication and pills doesn’t always work.So what do you suggest? Ban sex? Or ban parenthood?

    You talking about not being concerned about pregnancy when having sex-that’s a personal choice and responsibility ( and with all of the STd’s out there you SHOULD be concerned).

    How about this: Most pregnancies are unplanned, and the parents do parent their child.Why is that bparents can ‘t do the same? Sounds like an excuse. My bparents were young teens in the 60’s so I totally “get it” why they couldn’t parent ( and I am grateful for my aparents who did an excellent job of raising me) but today, there’s NO EXCUSE! Every reason ( minus drugs and other poor lifestyle choices) is a cop-out. I think today’s bparents dont WANT TO raise their children and later regret placing, and use adoption and the parents as scapegoats.

    Blue stokking:

    I have been in reunion with my bparents for 5 years. My children also call them “grandma and grandpa” BUT my aparents are MY parents.They were teens in the 60’s so I “get” why they couldn’t raise me. I have no ill will towards them, I’m glad they weren’t able to raise me, my life would have been WAY different. I’m grateful for the wonderful aparents that I have.

    Again, it all about personal responsibilty, anythind is a cop-out!

  44. ETA:

    ming-ling & blue stocking:

    Sorry for the typo, what I mean’t to write was:

    Again, it all about personal responsibilty, anything else is a cop-out!

  45. bluestokking Says:

    Anon – Congrats for you on reunion. Of course those that raised you are your parents. So you get why your parents couldnt raise you and you have no ill weill towars them but its today’s mothers you have issues with? You seem all over the board. If your adoption was fabulous, your parents faublous, your reunion fabulous, why do you care what others do? Why do you judge others so harshly?

    Regardless, congreats on your successful reunion with your mother, father, parents and your children.

  46. Mei-Ling Says:

    Er, my name is spelled “Mei-Ling.”

    “Nice try, this is the U.S. If you want to parent you can.It maybe hard but IT”S doa able.”

    Well, I’m not very familiar with U.S. adoptions.

    “You talking about not being concerned about pregnancy when having sex-that’s a personal choice and responsibility”

    Yes but my point is that you can’t always be 100% certain about ANYTHING pertaining to sex. You can take all the most protective measures and use The Pill and other medications and STILL end up pregnant. So THEN what do you suggest? Ban sex?

  47. “Anon – Congrats for you on reunion. Of course those that raised you are your parents. So you get why your parents couldnt raise you and you have no ill weill towars them but its today’s mothers you have issues with? You seem all over the board. If your adoption was fabulous, your parents faublous, your reunion fabulous, why do you care what others do? Why do you judge others so harshly?

    Regardless, congreats on your successful reunion with your mother, father, parents and your children.”

    Bluestokking:
    Because anything you say that’s negative about aparents ( minus abuse) is like speaking about my parents. And yes, I really do have some “concerns” about today’s bmoms. Like I said before, they’re not young damsels in distress- some of them are parents already.! With all of the choices here in the U.S. there’s no excuse! But all I hear is entitlement and victimhood!

    ‘Yes but my point is that you can’t always be 100% certain about ANYTHING pertaining to sex. You can take all the most protective measures and use The Pill and other medications and STILL end up pregnant. So THEN what do you suggest? Ban sex?”

    Mei-Ling

    I get what you’re saying and I agree.However, it’s still YOUR responsibility to “deal” with the consequnances. Not blame adoption and the aparents for YOUR inability to parent your child.

    For the record I think you’re ducking the responsibility part!

  48. Mei-Ling Says:

    Anon: “Because anything you say that’s negative about aparents ( minus abuse) is like speaking about my parents.”

    So what you’re saying is that you’re personalizing EVERYTHING that’s being said here? That’s not a wise idea in adoption conversations as it will cloud your ability to have a reasonable discussion.

    “However, it’s still YOUR responsibility to “deal” with the consequnances.”

    Actually, I think that they ARE dealing with the consequences as we speak – their child being taken from them when they weren’t ready to parent. So does that mean they deserve to be punished for accidentally getting pregnant? If so, to which extent? Is a woman who is a victim of rape responsible for “getting into” the circumstance that allowed her to be raped? After all, she should have realized that if a man continued to restrain her even though she had NOT given consent to sex and taking off his clothes that he was going to rape her! So should she have somehow prevented that situation to begin with?

    NOTE: I apologize in advance to ANY rape victims that may be lurking here. I do not want to compare this to adoption as it is a horrific act, but I’m trying to get a point across.

    “Not blame adoption and the aparents for YOUR inability to parent your child.”

    Well, here’s the thing: from what I have heard, a lot of BSE moms WOULD HAVE been able to parent their own child if given the chance. But back then, single moms were unacceptable. The fathers did not take responsibility for their own offspring. Why? I don’t know; ask them that! Ask them why they felt they didn’t have to take their part of the responsibility.

    P.S. “For the record I think you’re ducking the responsibility part!”

    Was that directed at me? O.o

  49. “Anon: “Because anything you say that’s negative about aparents ( minus abuse) is like speaking about my parents.”

    So what you’re saying is that you’re personalizing EVERYTHING that’s being said here? That’s not a wise idea in adoption conversations as it will cloud your ability to have a reasonable discussion.”

    First off, al I hear is people personalizing the discussion. You’re using double standards here. It’s ok for “angry adoptees” and ” resentful birthparents” to voice their “personal “opinions!

    “However, it’s still YOUR responsibility to “deal” with the consequnances.”

    Actually, I think that they ARE dealing with the consequences as we speak – their child being taken from them when they weren’t ready to parent. So does that mean they deserve to be punished for accidentally getting pregnant? ”

    In today’s era NO ONE is punishing these bmoms-the willing are choosing adoption for their child. Again, it’s a choice thy made when they didn’t use birth control and after they decided they couldn’t or didn’t want to raise their child.

    “If so, to which extent? Is a woman who is a victim of rape responsible for “getting into” the circumstance that allowed her to be raped? After all, she should have realized that if a man continued to restrain her even though she had NOT given consent to sex and taking off his clothes that he was going to rape her! So should she have somehow prevented that situation to begin with?

    NOTE: I apologize in advance to ANY rape victims that may be lurking here. I do not want to compare this to adoption as it is a horrific act, but I’m trying to get a point across.”

    Save it! If you are a victim of rape then you have no choice. If you are the “victim” of your own iresponsibile actions, then it’s on YOU!

    “Not blame adoption and the aparents for YOUR inability to parent your child.”

    Well, here’s the thing: from what I have heard, a lot of BSE moms WOULD HAVE been able to parent their own child if given the chance. But back then, single moms were unacceptable. The fathers did not take responsibility for their own offspring. Why? I don’t know; ask them that! Ask them why they felt they didn’t have to take their part of the responsibility.”

    See “would have” and could have” can’t raise a child. Again, instead of focusing on pleasure beffore having sex, think about pregnanies and STD’s too. When I was in high school during the 80’s the main concern for me and my girlfrind WAS becoming pregnant. We used protection.

    “P.S. “For the record I think you’re ducking the responsibility part!”

    Was that directed at me? O.o”

    Of course

  50. Mei-Ling:

    What is wrong with one acknowledging they ” screwed-up”?

  51. Mei-Ling Says:

    “You’re using double standards here. It’s ok for “angry adoptees” and ” resentful birthparents” to voice their “personal “opinions!”

    Please show me where I am using double standards. *You* just said: “Because anything you say that’s negative about aparents ( minus abuse) is like speaking about my parents.”

    Which – as I take it – means that anything negative here said about aparents in general is something you are presuming to be a personal attack towards your own mom and dad, correct?

    “In today’s era NO ONE is punishing these bmoms-the willing are choosing adoption for their child.”

    This discussion wasn’t based on TODAY’S mothers – it was based on coercion in the past. People need to acknowledge the ramifications in adoption.

    “If you are a victim of rape then you have no choice. If you are the “victim” of your own iresponsibile actions, then it’s on YOU!”

    In which situations of sex is the person receiving sex NOT considered irresponsible, then? In your opinion? When is the person ok to be a victim? Only in rape?

    “See “would have” and could have” can’t raise a child.”

    How do you know that? They might have been excellent mothers. This is where you say a mother never raised her child so she can’t know. Well the point still stands that a mother never raised her child so she can’t know if she would have been a crappy mother, either.

    “What is wrong with one acknowledging they ” screwed-up”?”

    Hm, I don’t think a lot of mother deny that having sex was part of the problem. They fully acknowledge that having had sex MIGHT have produced a child. But you see, that is my point – there is no foolproof way to determine whether or not having sex WILL create a fetus.

    ““P.S. “For the record I think you’re ducking the responsibility part!””

    Ducking responsibility? For what? I’m not from the BSE and I’m not the one ranting about how I lost a child. I’m explaining to you that banning sex would not fix the problem of responsibility that you seem to think NO MOTHERS are willing to acknowledge.

    Yes, they have. I have conversed with them through e-mail and they are willing to admit that they had sex. Is this what you are getting at?

  52. Which – as I take it – means that anything negative here said about aparents in general is something you are presuming to be a personal attack towards your own mom and dad, correct?

    NO. it’s an attack against ALL adoptive parents, imo

    “In today’s era NO ONE is punishing these bmoms-the willing are choosing adoption for their child.”

    This discussion wasn’t’t based on TODAY’S mothers – it was based on coercion in the past. People need to acknowledge the ramifications in adoption.”

    If I’m not mistaken this discussion IS about Today’s bparents

    “If you are a victim of rape then you have no choice. If you are the “victim” of your own irresponsible actions, then it’s on YOU!In which situations of sex is the person receiving sex NOT considered irresponsible, then? In your opinion? When is the person ok to be a victim? Only in rape?”

    What do you think? You’re the one that had the excuse of pleasure before common sense and responsibility.

    “See “would have” and could have” can’t raise a child.

    How do you know that? They might have been excellent mothers. This is where you say a mother never raised her child so she can’t know. Well the point still stands that a mother never raised her child so she can’t know if she would have been a crappy mother, either.”

    Please stop the madness! If you get pregnant when you aren’t able to parent your child whose fault is it? Everybody knows if you can’t parent your child it’s YOUR fault for getting yourself in the situation in the first place!

    “What is wrong with one acknowledging they ” screwed-up”?”

    Hm, I don’t think a lot of mother deny that having sex was part of the problem. They fully acknowledge that having had sex MIGHT have produced a child. But you see, that is my point – there is no foolproof way to determine whether or not having sex WILL create a fetus.”

    Again, stop. I don’t think your slow. You and I know very well that becoming pregnant WAS the problem!Anytime you do have unprotected sex you can become pregnant! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to “get it”

    ““P.S. “For the record I think you’re ducking the responsibility part!

    Ducking responsibility? For what? I’m not from the BSE and I’m not the one ranting about how I lost a child. I’m explaining to you that banning sex would not fix the problem of responsibility that you seem to think NO MOTHERS are willing to acknowledge.

    Yes, they have. I have conversed with them through e-mail and they are willing to admit that they had sex. Is this what you are getting at?”

    No one is suggesting banning sex. How about being sexual responsible, how hard is that to do? Again, for the record, we KNOW the bmom had sex-how else would she become pregnant! When you become pregnant at a young age, IT IS a problem. You can’t expect or demand that you’re parents raise you, your siblings and your child, unless they want to.

    Again, personal responsibility is the bottom line, and anything is a cop-out
    for accountability

    • Anon said:

      “Please stop the madness! If you get pregnant when you aren’t able to parent your child whose fault is it? Everybody knows if you can’t parent your child it’s YOUR fault for getting yourself in the situation in the first place!”

      Seems to me like many people think it is the CHILD’S fault. Otherwise why would we be made to suffer for it by losing our mothers?

      I don’t think we children were hovering around our mother’s heads whispering that she should have unprotected sex so that we might be born. Yet we are the ones ultimately punished for her (and Dad’s) irresponsibility.

      I’m glad that situation is just fine to you. It’s not to me and many other adoptees. We are not, and never were, “fine” with it.

      Being young, being uneducated, being unmarried, being poor … none of these makes one an “unfit” parent. It makes one a parent in need of some help and encouragement, some mentoring, in order to give their children the proper start in life. Too many times society would rather just take their children. To me that speaks of more selfish motives than “helping” them.

      If there was true love and concern for these children people, individually, and we, as a society, would view adoption more as a last resort, and volunteer our time and our money to help these families stay together. Would it be any less “rewarding” to an infertile couple to mentor and assist a struggling young mother and her child?

  53. To anon,

    I think what you are missing in your arguments is a sense of justice and equal punishment for the crime.

    Yes, as a bparent made the decision to have sex. Yes, they are responsible for the creation of a child. I can agree with you on that.

    However, that does not mean that that person cannot EVER be a victim in ANY WAY EVER AGAIN. That does not remove blame of others in the situation who lie or coerce.

    As a birthmother (who was raped, mind you), I can tell you that I was lied to. I was coerced. Yes, I could have parented my child, but was told by everyone in my life that I could not. That I would be a bad mother. That it took a husband and money to be a good parent.

    Those were lies.

    Yes, having sex makes the bmother accountable. But being lied to is outside her responsibility.

    I don’t expect you to understand. But to be fair, everyone should try to put themselves in others’ shoes. I dont see here that you are not.

    That would be like me saying that if you did one bad thing, that you deserved a lifetime of pain in return, no matter who caused it. You stole some bubble gum in third grade, so I’m sorry, when you were twenty and someone lied and said you stole their car, you deserved it. o.O?

    Bmoms aren’t escaping responsibility. They live it. Every.day.of.their.lives. But those that lie to them? Those that pass themselves off as “better” than them? They do not. They get to walk away with what they wanted, either cash in their pockets or a cute baby to love.

    At the end of the day, the only people suffering a loss are the bparents and the adoptees.

    Yes, I and many bmoms like me deserved to get pregnant. We made the choice at one time or another to have sex. We did not deserve to be lied to or any other way coerced (btw, many forms of torture are called “coercion” – there’s a reason coercion is used this way) to give up their child.

    My mistake does not mean that anyone else is allowed to hurt me in return.

  54. ETA:

    I forgot to mention, if you cant afford to raise a child and you are living from paycheck to paycheck-then use birth control and double it up with a condom. This is not a third world country where birth control isn’t available or resources ( social services)aren’t in place to help you temporary raise your child

  55. Mei-Ling Says:

    “it’s an attack against ALL adoptive parents, imo”

    Please point out where it has been either implied or indicated that these comments have demeaned ALL adoptive parents.

    “If I’m not mistaken this discussion IS about Today’s bparents”

    No, the discussion is revolving around today’s ethics and the options that bmoms have. The people who are speaking about how they had no choice are discussing the past. The blame that’s going around is because we are trying to apply today’s choices and figuring out why they wouldn’t have applied to the past – the choice issue.

    “You’re the one that had the excuse of pleasure before common sense and responsibility.”

    I find it deeply amusing that you avoid my questions. And btw, I’m not the one who had sex. My friends do, though. Does that mean I should stop telling them to have sex IN CASE they get pregnant?

    “If you get pregnant when you aren’t able to parent your child whose fault is it?”

    If you keep saying it is the MERE ACT of having sex, then I ask you: SHOULD WE BAN SEX?! EVEN if we are sexually responsible, we might STILL get pregnant *gasp*. So then what? Where does the blame go? On the protection failing? On The Pill not working? What?

    And how do you know the bmoms didn’t want to raise their own children?

    “Anytime you do have unprotected sex you can become pregnant! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to “get it” ”

    You’re missing my enquiry. What if you DID have protected sex and were sexually safe and took the Pill and medications to NOT get pregnant? What if that DOESN’T WORK?

    “You can’t expect or demand that your parents raise you, your siblings and your child, unless they want to.”

    What if the mother wants to raise her child but receives no support? Is she to be forever condemned for that one act? Where is the line drawn between punishment and support?

  56. bluestokking Says:

    Bmoms aren’t escaping responsibility. They live it. Every.day.of.their.lives. But those that lie to them? Those that pass themselves off as “better” than them? They do not. They get to walk away with what they wanted, either cash in their pockets or a cute baby to love.

    Amen Nikko Jo.

  57. Mei-Ling Says:

    “I forgot to mention, if you cant afford to raise a child and you are living from paycheck to paycheck-then use birth control and double it up with a condom. This is not a third world country where birth control isn’t available or resources ( social services)aren’t in place to help you temporary raise your child”

    What if the person IS using birth control? What if the person IS using a condom? Then what? Birth control is absolutely available but it does not prevent anything 100% from happening. So, the only solution here that you seem to be implying which would guarantee NO babies or unwanted pregnancies is to ban sex!

  58. bluestokking Says:

    So, the only solution here that you seem to be implying which would guarantee NO babies or unwanted pregnancies is to ban sex!

    I dont get that from Anon. She/he seems quite confident that adoption is the way to go. Punish the mother for being raped, poor, unedcuated, homeless, naive, drugged by doctors, strapped to beds and give her child to strangers to raise.

    Is that true, Anon?

    Do you ever support family preservation? It would appear you have the old school view that single motherhood is a problem, children are blank slates that have no attachment to their biological families and therefore objects that should be sold for any price to any married, responsible couple?

  59. Mei-Ling Says:

    Bluestokking: Actually, I think she thinks that by taking ALL and EACH measure to have “safe/protected” sex, you can eliminate the possibility for pregnancy! Oh, and that Anon seems to believe coercion doesn’t exist.

  60. “Bluestokking: Actually, I think she thinks that by taking ALL and EACH measure to have “safe/protected” sex, you can eliminate the possibility for pregnancy! Oh, and that Anon seems to believe coercion doesn’t exist.”

    Mei-Ling:

    As I said before, Most pregnancies are unplanned, and the parents do parent their children.Why is it TODAY”S bparents can ‘t do the same? Sounds like an excuse. My bparents were young teens in the 60’s so I totally “get it” why they couldn’t parent ( and I am grateful for my aparents who did an excellent job of raising me) but today, there’s NO EXCUSE! Every reason ( minus drugs and other poor lifestyle choices) is a cop-out. I think today’s bparents dont WANT TO raise their children and later regret placing, and use adoption and the parents as scapegoats.

    And no, I don’t believe coercion in TODAY’s adoptions exist.It’s not like 40 years ago with societal pressure.

    Again personal responsibility: if you get pregnant you can abort, parent or place. The choice is yours, just like it was your choice to sleep with the birthfather (unless you were raped).

  61. ETA:

    I mean’t to write “SOME” not “ALL” of today’s bmoms don’t want to raise their children.

  62. Mei-Ling Says:

    “I think today’s bparents dont WANT TO raise their children and later regret placing, and use adoption and the parents as scapegoats.”

    You seriously think all those unplanned pregnancies means the bparents do/did not want to parent? REALLY?

    Mothers like Suz and Carol didn’t relinquish in TODAY’S times. They were talking about past coercion and how the ETHICS of adoption coercion exist today. And yes, today coercion exists. It’s not as frequent within the U.S. but definitely still exists. Just because you’re not being strapped to a chair and a knife across your throat does not mean it isn’t coercion. Being told “You’re too young” IS coercion. Being told “You had sex so you don’t deserve to raise this child and you need to place it for adoption” IS coercion. It’s subtle, but it does qualify as coercion.

  63. Sorry, being told the truth isn’t coercion.

    Thank you for acknowledging that coercion isn’t frequent here in the U.S.. Also, being told you are too young isn’t coercion- it maybe the truth!

    When you become pregnant at a young age, IT’s a problem. You can’t expect or demand that your parents raise you, your siblings and your child, unless they want to.

    And like I said before, many of TODAY’s bmoms are parenting a child already. So I find it very hard to see how they are the “damsels in distress” who were “forced” to place.

    I think TODAY’S bparents regrets placing and use adoption and aparents as scapegoats.”

  64. So, if being told the truth (whatever you personally define your truth as) is not coercion, then you admit that being lied to is coercion and mothers can be coerced?

    You might find this interesting. Do not fool yourself into thinking these practices are not in place today. As long as there is a demand created by wealthy infertile couples there will be agencies out there anxious to find the product to sell to meet the demand.

    A. Psychological Coercion. Purpose: To convince you that you were unfit as a mother and thus had to give your baby to people “more fit’ or “more deserving.”

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. You were told you that you were unfit to be a mother because you were ‘unwed’.
    2. You were told that you would be inadequate as a mother.
    3. You were told that keeping your baby would be selfish.
    4. You were forced to draw up a list comparing what you could give to your baby with what adopters could give.
    5. It was stressed to you that your baby “needed a two-parent family.”
    6. It was stressed to you that the needs of your baby came before your own needs and that you could not fulfill your baby’s needs.
    7. The doctor who delivered your baby told you that you must sign-over your baby to him for adoption. (Did you later find out that the baby was adopted by friends of the doctor?)
    8. You were told that if you did not surrender your baby, that your baby would be put into foster care until you did sign.
    9. You are told that surrendering your baby is an expression of how much you love your baby (message: if you keep your baby then you don’t love your baby).
    10. You are told that adoption is “thinking about what is best for your baby.” (message: adoption is best for your baby).
    11. You are told that adoption is “putting your baby’s needs first.” (i.e., before your own needs. Message: your baby does not need you.)

    B. Psychological Coercion. Purpose: To convince you that you have an emotional obligation to surrender your baby.

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. You were told to think only of the joy that you’d “give to a couple who could not have children of their own.”
    2. You were told that if you changed your mind, you would be disappointing a wonderful mother who was “waiting for her first baby.”
    3. You were told that you could not keep your baby as your baby has been promised to someone already.
    4. You were encouraged to have the adopters pay your medical or living expenses such that you felt you “owed” them your baby.
    5. You were encouraged to meet with the adopters and after meeting them felt you could not bear to disappoint them by choosing to keep your baby
    6. You were encouraged to establish a relationship with the adopters, and then “fell in love with” with them prior to surrender.
    7. You were told by your parents that you could come home once you had “disposed of the problem” (i.e. surrendered your baby).
    8. You were encouraged to have the adopters in the labour or delivery room with you, for the birth of “their” baby, and thus you felt you could not bear to disappoint them by “changing your mind.”

    C. Psychological Coercion. Purpose: To remove from you all personal support systems and make you reliant on adoption professionals for advice, counselling and emotional support. To distance you from any person who might try to provide alternatives to surrender.

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. Your family members or boyfriend were discouraged by adoption professionals from helping you..
    2. Your family members and/or boyfriend were prohibited from seeing you.
    3. You were incarcerated by your parents in a maternity home or wage home where adoption was stressed as “the loving option” and/or “the only option.”
    4. Contact with your parents, boyfriend, fiance, etc. was restricted by the agency, maternity home, or social worker(s).
    5. Your correspondence in or out of the maternity home or wage home was screened.
    6. Telephone use was restricted in the maternity home or wage home.
    7. Your boyfriend was lied to by adoption professionals that the baby was not his.
    8. You were told that your parents were coercing you by encouraging you to keep your baby, that “they only want to be grandparents.”
    9. You were encouraged to distrust anyone who didn’t support you surrendering your baby.

    D. Psychological Coercion. Purpose: To psychologically and physically distance you from your baby in order to increase the probability that you would surrender. To ensure that surrender of your baby was seen by you a “inevitable.”

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. Your baby was taken from you at birth by either medical professionals or prospective adopters.
    2. Your access to your baby in the hospital was severely restricted by medical and/or nursing staff.
    3. You were put into a ward other than the maternity ward for recovery, a distance away from your baby.
    4. Your baby was immediately transferred without your consent to a different hospital.
    5. While still pregnant you were labelled a “birthmother,” to put you into the mind-set that your only role in the life of your child was to give birth.
    6. You asked for your baby and were told “No!”
    7. You were told that you were not allowed to see your baby unless/until you signed the surrender papers.
    8. You asked for your baby and were told that it was best that you did not see your baby.
    9. You were given general anesthetic for the birth and kept under anesthetic until your baby was removed for adoption.
    10. You were given mind-altering drugs such as scopalamine by medical staff for several days after the birth in order to induce amnesia.
    11. Your signature was obtained while under the influence of mind-altering drugs administered to you by medical staff..
    12. The drug Stilboestrol was administered to you as a lactation suppressant without your consent.
    13. You asked for your baby back and the adopters stalled until the “revocation of consent” period had expired.

    E. Psychological Coercion. P urpose: To psychologically traumatize you to decrease the chances of you bonding with your baby.

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. Information about labour and delivery was deliberately kept from you such that you were scared and traumatized by the unfamiliar process once labour began.
    2. You were left isolated and alone during labour.
    3. You were physically assaulted and/or mutilated by hospital personnel during labour and/or birth (see “Catherine’s Story”)
    4. You were called derogatory names or otherwise derided by doctors, nurses or medical personnel during your pregnancy, labour or birth.
    5. The episiotomy was cut, or sewn-up, without anesthesia.
    6. The episiotomy cut thru ligaments, was cut down your leg, or was otherwise unnecessarily large.

    F. Financial Coercion. Purpose: To make you feel financially pressured to surrender. Note: young single mothers are often in a financially-vulnerable situation anyway and thus financial coercion is often a major factor.

    1. You are told, or led to believe, that no social assistance was available that would provide you with the financial support necessary to enable you to keep your baby.
    2. You are told near or after the birth that if you change your mind, you would be liable for paying for medical bills or other costs beyond your ability to pay.
    3. The hospital refused to release your baby to you unless you pay them a large sum of money beyond your ability to pay.

    G. Fraud. Purpose: To guarantee the surrender of your child.

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. Your baby was taken immediately into foster care with no explanation and kept there with the location kept secret from you until the social worker could use “abandonment” as a basis for revoking your parental rights.
    2. You were told at some point that the adoption was “final” and found out later that it wasn’t.
    3. You were told that your baby had died at birth and later found this was false. Note, this is known in the adoption industry as “rapid adoption” – see the article “Rapid Adoptions.” ALL single mothers who were told that their baby was stillborn and were not permitted to see the body should demand to see the certificate of death!
    4. You were told that the adoption was “final” and found out later that it wasn’t at that point in time.
    5. You were told that there were no other alternatives. (information about social assistance was withheld from you).
    6. You were led to believe that a promise of open adoption was a legally-binding agreement and the adoption later closed.
    7. You were told you would “get over it” and be able to return to your “normal life.”
    8. The documents were signed by someone else forging your signature without your knowledge or consent.
    9. You were informed after signing a “pre-birth consent” that it would be held binding in a court-of-law.

    H. Withholding information from the mother. Purpose: To you to surrender by withholding known information about risks or negative consequences.

    Methods used by “Adoption Professionals”:

    1. Information withheld about the known lifelong implications, risks, and emotional consequences of surrender (see http://www.birthmothers.info for information adoption professionals are aware of but commonly withhold)
    2. Information withheld about options that would enable you to keep your baby (i.e. financial assistance, temporary foster care, foster care for you and your child together, temporary guardianship, or filing through court for child support from your baby’s father)
    3. Information withheld about your right to independent legal counsel to explain the legal document you were signing and the legal ramifications of it and to be present in the room to protect your rights as you signed it.
    4. Information withheld about the existence of a “revocation of consent” period.
    5. You were not permitted to read the documents you were signing.
    6. You were not given a copy of the documents you signed.
    7. You were pressured to decide on adoption while still pregnant, or to surrender your infant without being able to first care for your infant for several weeks post-partum in order to make an informed decision about motherhood?
    8. Information withheld from you about your right to take as many days, weeks or months as you needed before deciding on adoption, if you decided on it at all.
    9. Information withheld about your right to care-for and nurture your baby in the hospital.
    10. Information withheld about your right to take your baby home from the hospital with you.

  65. “So, if being told the truth (whatever you personally define your truth as) is not coercion, then you admit that being lied to is coercion and mothers can be coerced?

    You might find this interesting. Do not fool yourself into thinking these practices are not in place today. As long as there is a demand created by wealthy infertile couples there will be agencies out there anxious to find the product to sell to meet the demand.”

    Suz:

    First I think being told the truth isn’t coercion nor, in some cases, lying. Being told you are too young or not in a “good place” emotionally, physically or financially is being honest.When you become pregnant at a young age, IT’s a problem. You can’t expect or demand that your parents raise you, your siblings and your child, unless they want to.

    And let’s be honest, it’s no ones fault the bmom is pregnant and unable to parent her child; she and the birthfather are the ones that got themselves into the situation she’s in. No one put a gun to their head and forced them to procreate for an infertile couple. Just like no one forced them to chose adoption over parenting.

    I know bmoms from the BSE didn’t have the choices today’s bmom has ( social services and child support enforcement), and back then it was an embarrassment to be a young, single unwed mother. So I “get it” but today’s bmom-she’s in the situation she’s in because of herself.

    And for the record, not all aparents are wealthy nor do all birthmoms want to raise their children. Some bmoms are placing because they’re in college; the bdad is married or she’s married and the child isn’t her husband’s baby. There are many reasons why women place and because of that, there will always be a need for adoption.

  66. Anon wrote, “I have no ill will towards them, I’m glad they weren’t able to raise me, my life would have been WAY different.”

    Saying you have no ill will towards your natural parents while at the same time being GLAD to have been raised by someone else speaks volumes. Nice way to kick your mother in the teeth. I hope you have never said that to her face, but considering your hostile attitude towards mothers, it would not suprise me if you have.

    And the “grateful” routine is another topic altogether. Upon reaching adulthood, most non-adoptees are able to see their parents for who they are: good, bad, flawed, strong, weak, etc. Most of us don’t walk in the shadow of perfect parents….except the eternally grafteful adoptee who sees only perfection in the saviors who rescued him from a miserable life with the lowly “bparents.””

  67. Cindy Sue Says:

    Anon- I’m seriously worried about you and I think you should seek help before your anger boils into violence. You have a right to be angry you were extorted and forced into a form of slavery. Please get help for yourself. Here’s a quote from a news magazine regarding violence and murder, especially in male adoptees. “Adoption has long been neglected by mental health experts, as well as the criminal justice system, in the search for causes of eruptions of extreme violence. For instance, even in the celebrated case of the Hillside Strangler, no fewer than six psychiatrists rendered opinions on Ken Bianco’s diagnosis and “mens rea” (state of mind during the killings), yet none of them apparently explored the possible influence of adoption on his motivation and psychological makeup. Likewise, the significance of adoption was never examined in a courtroom, in the case of David Berkowitz, the notorious Son of Sam, nor in most of the other high-profile serial killer cases mentioned above. ”

    Get to the REAL roots of your issue. I bet you were loved and wanted very much.

  68. Anon- I’m seriously worried about you and I think you should seek help before your anger boils into violence. You have a right to be angry you were extorted and forced into a form of slavery. Please get help for yourself. Here’s a quote from a news magazine regarding violence and murder, especially in male adoptees. “Adoption has long been neglected by mental health experts, as well as the criminal justice system, in the search for causes of eruptions of extreme violence. For instance, even in the celebrated case of the Hillside Strangler, no fewer than six psychiatrists rendered opinions on Ken Bianco’s diagnosis and “mens rea” (state of mind during the killings), yet none of them apparently explored the possible influence of adoption on his motivation and psychological makeup. Likewise, the significance of adoption was never examined in a courtroom, in the case of David Berkowitz, the notorious Son of Sam, nor in most of the other high-profile serial killer cases mentioned above. ”

    Get to the REAL roots of your issue. I bet you were loved and wanted very much.

    Cindy Sue:

    I think some bmoms need help, a lot of them are in denial and refuse to acknowledge they’re responsible for the situation they’re in. Like I said before: it’s no one’s fault you got pregnant and weren’t able to raise your child; no one put a gun to you head and forced you to procreate.

    I “get” many of them regret the situations and decisions they made, but to use adoption and aparents as scrapegoats is insane.It boils down to personal responsibility and choices.

    P.S. Did you read that I have a nice relationship with my bparents and my children call them grandma & grandpa? So I don’t think I need help.

  69. ETA:

    Cindy Sue:

    I wanted to add many of the example you sited in your post ,forgot to mention the genetic background of these serial killers and other who have mental health issues

  70. Mei-Ling Says:

    cindy: I hate to momentarily switch sides on this, but I do not believe it is ever right for someone to be telling an adoptee they are in “denial” if they haven’t explicitedly stated they wish their bparents could have raised them or if they haven’t claimed to be sad that they were relinquished. Not all adoptees feel loss.

    Anon: “I “get” many of them regret the situations and decisions they made, but to use adoption and aparents as scrapegoats is insane”

    To blame the adoptive parents for everything? Yeah, that’s going way too far. To blame the adoption agencies which took advantage of their hormonal weaknesses and made them feel like trash by saying something like “you’re too young to raise a child, it’s your fault you gave birth so fess up to the consequences.” That isn’t telling them ANY truth; it’s punishing them. It’s forever condeming them and when their babies are taken into adoption, it’s like saying to them “YOU had sex. YOU signed the papers. You DESERVE to be punished because you had sex that one time. This entire thing is ALL YOUR FAULT.”

    And hey, I used to be an adoptee who said those things too. Not on my blog, but in comments, over e-mails. I told them it was their fault they had sex and ended up signing the papers. Then I emotionally grew up and stopped berating them for a situation that THEY HAD BEEN IN. Sex does NOT mean they should be punished for the rest of their lives. Sex does NOT mean they should be condemned in hell or be told they lack any sort of responsibility. Many of them HAVE ADMITTED THEY HAD SEX AND BIRTHED A CHILD IN LESS THAN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES. What more do you want from them? What more is there to say than “I had sexual intercourse when I was young and I’m sorry for being so foolish and making that mistake”?

    To which extent do you wish for them to relieve their past mistake of having sex till? To which extent of internal punishment and them ADMITTING they had a responsibility to NOT get pregnant will be satisfiable for you?

    Would you like them to go around saying “I’m sorry I had sex and it was irresponsible of me at the time” FOREVER? They were responsible for the sex but they were NOT responsible for the subtle coercion that agencies placed into their heads.

    Being young does not mean you cannot parent. I know a college student who is in her early twenties and she’s raising a TODDLER. WHILE taking classes. It isn’t impossible. It isn’t recommended either but it is NOT impossible. And she isn’t getting told EVERY day “Well you had sex so SUCK UP and admit that you were irresponsible.” Nor is she being that she cannot parent her own child. So no, it is NOT always about the age factor.

  71. Mei-Ling Says:

    ETA: “I think some bmoms need help, a lot of them are in denial and refuse to acknowledge they’re responsible for the situation they’re in.”

    You cannot understand that a woman cannot always guarantee not getting pregnant?

    You cannot understand that birth control does not always work, even if a woman takes ALL measures to prevent from getting pregnant? Then what?

    You still haven’t answered my questions.

    I finally figured out a few comments ago what you were saying. It is not even about the sex issue – you think that if she is going to have sex, she should be prepared in case she gets pregnant and owe up if she DOES get pregnant.

    And then you say “Well she can’t parent if she doesn’t have the resources. Besides teen moms shouldn’t be parenting anyway.”

    Um, I’ve heard of teen moms who CAN parent. It’s not an extinct possibility.

    So essentially what you’re saying is that she shouldn’t ever get pregnant at a young age, so in order for that to happen, she should use FULL birth control, and supposing THAT doesn’t work, then she just should have realized she MIGHT get pregnant – in which case, as I have summarized, if she wanted to guarantee NO PREGNANCY whatsoever, she should have not bothered to accidentally get pregnant and therefore just don’t have sex which eliminates the possibility of getting pregnant in the first place.

    Like I said, I think if we just called a full on sex-BAN and avoided the idea of responsibility, that would suit what you’re asking for. Because in your POV, it’s either “don’t get pregnant, EVEN by accident because of birth control!” or “fess up and take responsibility and stop blaming other people even though they take advantage of you!”

    Being aware of sexual responsibility does not stop someone from getting pregnant. Wearing a condom, taking pills, also does not stop someone from getting pregnant. The ONLY solution to NEVER getting pregnant is NOT HAVING SEX.

  72. Mei-Ling:

    If you had been reading my post correctly you would have noticed my point is personal responsibility. Blaming agencies and the aparents is a cop-out for not acknowledging the huge role they have in this situation. Like I said before, no one FORCED them into the situations they got themselves into.

  73. Mei-Ling Says:

    Anon: Have you ever had sex before? Have you ever read about sex? Do you know that people aren’t always in their right minds during sex?

    “Well, then DON’T HAVE SEX,” you response.

    So then what? Ban sex?

  74. “I finally figured out a few comments ago what you were saying. It is not even about the sex issue – you think that if she is going to have sex, she should be prepared in case she gets pregnant and owe up if she DOES get pregnant. ”

    About time you “got it!”

    Yes this is what I mean. If you do have sex, be prepared in case you get pregnant and owe if you do. There are resources to help you temporary raise your child.

    “And then you say “Well she can’t parent if she doesn’t have the resources. Besides teen moms shouldn’t be parenting anyway.”

    I don’t think teen moms make the best moms., but it happens.

    “Um, I’ve heard of teen moms who CAN parent. It’s not an extinct possibility.”

    You’re right but they usually have a great deal of support

    Again, no one is responsible for the situation the bparents are in except themselves, and to blame others for your inability to raise your child is insane!

    Persoanel responsibility

  75. Mei-Ling Says:

    “If you do have sex, be prepared in case you get pregnant and owe if you do. There are resources to help you temporary raise your child.”

    Well, perhaps a bmom who has had to relinquish her child in TODAY’S times can across this and delurk to explain what types of resources they were – if she had access to them, how she was coerced into losing her child, etc.

    And I still believe that agencies today use coercive methods. Yes, even in the U.S.

  76. Mei-Ling Says:

    “Again, no one is responsible for the situation the bparents are in except themselves, and to blame others for your inability to raise your child is insane!”

    What if they were told they couldn’t raise a child? What if they WANTED to but were told “Too bad, you can’t raise that child, you’re too wrong”?

    What is considered “too young” to be raising a child? How will a teen mom know if she is a good parent if she is not even given the chance to try?

    Does the label “teen mom” based on “accidental pregnancy” automatically default her as “crappy parent”?

  77. Cindy Sue Says:

    “Like I said before: it’s no one’s fault you got pregnant and weren’t able to raise your child; no one put a gun to you head and forced you to procreate.”

    How do you know the details behind my pregnancy? Force was indeed used my friend. Also after 4 hours of saying “no” to signing the adoption papers, the social worker took my hand and forced me to sign the papers using her hand over mine to secure a signature. A completely forged document.

    I am getting every kind of professional help available for myself, traditional PTSD therapy as well as TFT a new treatment used to treat PTSD for Columbine, Kosavo, and Bosnia. Trust me I am NOT in denial about my issues.

    My lost daughter and I have been in reunion for 8 years, she finds every opportunity to manifest her anger towards me and she in not even aware of her actions.

    Here is another lovely story for you. My ex-husbands father was a BSE baby, adopted in the late 1930’s, he was told that his biological father was a pro baseball player and he was a “love child”, he went on to father 7 children. He beat them all with baseball bats on a regular basis, broken legs, head injuries, from very young ages. He actually killed one of them as an infant, by slamming the babies head. He could not control his anger about being adopted. All of his surviving children are very emotionally damaged and I have witnessed the cycle of pain continue through three generations.

    I have so much compassion for adoptees, your pain is the same as mine, I’m not judging or ripping on you at all. It’s not rocket science it’s a natural result to unnatural circumstances. Anons anger is very discernable and heartbreaking.

    It’s not this side or that side we are all in this together. Just food for thought.

  78. Well, perhaps a bmom who has had to relinquish her child in TODAY’S times can across this and delurk to explain what types of resources they were – if she had access to them, how she was coerced into losing her child, etc.

    And I still believe that agencies today use coercive methods. Yes, even in the U.S.

    Mei-Ling:

    It is what it is. Blaming agencies and the aparents is a cop-out for not acknowledging the huge role they have in this situation. Like I said before, no one FORCED them into the situations they got themselves into.

    TODAY’s bmom is a yound woman (20+) who is raisng a child ready,and not all birthmoms want to raise their children. Some bmoms are placing because they’re in college; the bdad is married or she’s married and the child isn’t her husband’s baby. There are many reasons why women place and because of that, there will always be a need for adoption.

  79. ETA; fix typos

    TODAY’s bmom is a yound woman (20+) who is raisng a child already and not all birthmoms want to raise their children. Some bmoms are placing because they’re in college; the bdad is married or she’s married and the child isn’t her husband’s baby. There are many reasons why women place and because of that, there will always be a need for adoption.

  80. have so much compassion for adoptees, your pain is the same as mine, I’m not judging or ripping on you at all. It’s not rocket science it’s a natural result to unnatural circumstances. Anons anger is very discernable and heartbreaking.

    It’s not this side or that side we are all in this together. Just food for thought.

    Cindy sue:

    I think youre in denial. Like Mei-Lindgsaid, not all adoptes have anger. I have a nice relationship with my bparents; my children call them grandma & grandpa. If I were angry like you say I am ,then why would they be in my life? Why would I “bless” them with the titles of “grand ma & grand pa”?

  81. Mei-Ling Says:

    “have so much compassion for adoptees, your pain is the same as mine”

    Huh?

    Do you believe agencies play no part in adoption, and that the only reason they are a part of adoption is because women cannot ‘keep their legs closed’?

  82. Mei-Ling Says:

    My pain is not the same as yours. I highly doubt we are even in the same adoptee category. Domestic adoption isn’t as complex as transracial adoption.

  83. Cindy Sue Says:

    Best of everything to you both. Good luck.

  84. Mei-Ling:

    I don’t have any pain.I was just voiceing my opinion about personal responsibility

  85. bluestokking Says:

    anon – i wanted to agree with you on something. you are correct, outsdie of rape, most mothers are not forced to have sex. i wasnt. i had it wililngly and i enjoyed it and i had it with a man i loved and yes a child, a beautiful one was conceived. so if thats your position, no one forces us to have sex, i agree. do i regret having sex with a man i loved? nope. do I regret that my child was conceived? nope. do i reget that i was to damn naive to fight the religion, my parents, caseworker, maternity home wardens, promissory notes and threats of lawsuits? you bet.

    where the force comes in for many mothers is how to deal with unplanned pregnancy. mothers are then forced into decisions they dont agree with. they are locked up, sent away, coerced, drugged, restrained, deceived, lack legal representation and more. i think this is the point many of us where trying to make.

    i realize you feel this doesnt happen now and that the US is the land of uber ethical adoptions where mothers are told of all the horrible things that happen with adoption as well as the possible wonderful things. it simply is not true. it also appears that you believe mothers – of any age – should be puninshed for having sex without being “prepared” (whatever prepared is by your standards). as noted, losing your child is life long punishment for sure. i served my sentence and paid my dues for offending someones god, someone elses morals, etc. my daughter has also paid.

  86. “anon – i wanted to agree with you on something. you are correct, outsdie of rape, most mothers are not forced to have sex. i wasnt. i had it wililngly and i enjoyed it and i had it with a man i loved and yes a child, a beautiful one was conceived. so if thats your position, no one forces us to have sex, i agree. do i regret having sex with a man i loved? nope. do I regret that my child was conceived? nope. do i reget that i was to damn naive to fight the religion, my parents, caseworker, maternity home wardens, promissory notes and threats of lawsuits? you bet.

    where the force comes in for many mothers is how to deal with unplanned pregnancy. mothers are then forced into decisions they don’t agree with. they are locked up, sent away, coerced, drugged, restrained, deceived, lack legal representation and more. i think this is the point many of us where trying to make. ”

    Blue:

    I take it you’re from the BSE era, correct? Like I said in one of my posts, I totally “get it” for bmom back then. There wasn’t birth control available and there was a stigma about young, unwed mothers. I’m talking about TODAY’S bmom. All I heard is them blaming adoption and the aprents for the situations they’re in. Adoption and the aparents didn’t get them into these situations, they did.With birth control and other “options” available, one can avoid becoming a parent.

    “i realize you feel this doesnt happen now and that the US is the land of uber ethical adoptions where mothers are told of all the horrible things that happen with adoption as well as the possible wonderful things. it simply is not true. it also appears that you believe mothers – of any age – should be puninshed for having sex without being “prepared” (whatever prepared is by your standards). as noted, losing your child is life long punishment for sure. i served my sentence and paid my dues for offending someones god, someone elses morals, etc. my daughter has also paid.”

    I don’t doubt the shame and isolation bmoms of the BSE era endured however, today’s bmom has everyone bending over backwards to please her. And I don’t think bmoms should be “punished” for having sex, I do believe when you have sex there’s a chance of becoming pregnant and if you do, own up to it. Don’t blame adoption and the aparents for your inability to raise your child- that’s on you!

    In general I think today’s bmom is WAY different from the BSE era bmom. There are many reasons why today’s bmoms are placing vs. BSE bmoms who placed because they were young, unwed mothers. However, the fact remains: you can’t blame anyone for you getting pregnant and not being able to raise your child.

    That’s where personal responsibility comes in.

  87. Blue:

    ETA:

    I wish you and your daughter the best.

  88. bluestokking Says:

    Anon – No, I am not BSE. I am post – bse by about 5 years. My daughter was born in 1986.

  89. Anon,

    Explain to me this. How is saying, “This person lied to me and they should not have done that”, placing ENTIRE blame on someone else and refusing to take ANY responsibility?

    It is merely holding A person responsible for their SMALL part in the bigger picture.

    Yes, I was pregnant, and Yes, I had choices and had to pay for that mistake. That however does not mean that other people didn’t do things wrong in the whole mess.

    My wrong doesn’t mean that everyone else is allowed to wrong me and not be called to the carpet.

    I paid for my mistakes. I pay for them still. Agencies, however, are not being held accountable for their lying.

    Tell me, why do you think it’s ok for agencies to lie, and actively market unwed mothers who aren’t considering adoption? Why is their “lying” ok and in no need of accountability, but only the bmoms have to be accountable.

    Tell me, in your world of sitting in judgement, how do you decide who has to take accountability and who does not? I was always told that EVERYONE is accountable for their wrongdoings, and even mistake.

    My responisibility was for a MISTAKE. Something not done with any intention for malace on my part.

    Tell me, why do you act so severe for my mistake and blatantly ignore the actual wrongs done by people with ACTUAL MALLICE in their hearts?

    You’ve got a pretty screwed up sense of morality and justice.

  90. thanksgivingmom Says:

    Anon – Can responsibility not be SHARED by two or more parties?

    I know MANY mothers that have placed in recent years that DO take responsibility – for their actions that led to pregnancy, for what led them to placement, etc. And yet, MANY of them were STILL taken advantage of by adoption agencies, and yes, even by aparents.

    Promises are made by agencies and aparents and are not kept.

    Threats are made by agencies.

    Women without insurance are told by agencies that their medical expenses are covered, only to be threatened while in the hospital, recovering from childbirth, to sign TPR or be forced to pay huge hospital bills.

    Women without support from spouses, family, or significant others are beaten down by agencies that tell them over and over and over again that they’re not qualified or capable to raise their child.

    That if they REALLY loved their child they would give them a better life.

    I know it’s easy for you to reconcile this and say, “Well, the agencies couldn’t talk to them like that if they’d just kept their legs shut!” But let’s be PRACTICAL for one minute.

    An unplanned pregnancy does not open the door for cruelty. It doesn’t provide justification for people to treat others poorly, to threaten others, to coerce them, or to dehumanize them. You can point your finger at women that find themselves facing unplanned pregnancies all day long – and it will do NOTHING to right the wrongs in adoption. NOTHING.

  91. Wow!

    No one is judging I was just responding to the accusations of entitlement and accountability towards the aparents and adoption. Let’s face it, if one wasn’t in this situation they wouldn’t ranting about how they were done wrong.

    “Women without support from spouses, family, or significant others are beaten down by agencies that tell them over and over and over again that they’re not qualified or capable to raise their child.

    That if they REALLY loved their child they would give them a better life.”

    It’s no one’s fault the bmom got pregnant and couldn’t or didn’t want to raise her child. And I think this is what it boils down to: sadness, regret and envy. I totally “get” the sadness and regret part, but to “blame” adoption and aparents is not right. And sometimes the bmom ISN’T fit to raise her child at that time. All I keep hearing is ” I’m not a baby machine for infertile couples” or ” I’m the victim”. Rarely have I heard a bmom say ” I screwed-up, I give birth to child when I wasn’t ready or didn’t want to parent at the time. I was misled, I regret it, but I take responsibility for it.”

    No one put a gun to your head and forced you to procreate for an infertile couple nor sign the TPR papers. NO ONE.

    P.S. Today’s bmom is older, and/or most likely has a child already, so she’s not a damsel in distress.

  92. Ladies, debating with Anon is a waste of time. He/she has a vey black and white view of the world which limits his capacity to have a well-rounded, nuanced point of view.

  93. “Ladies, debating with Anon is a waste of time. He/she has a vey black and white view of the world which limits his capacity to have a well-rounded, nuanced point of view.”

    Maybe:

    Maybe it’s you who has the limited capacity! Everyone knows it’s people like YOU who blame adoption and the aparents for your lack of not being able to raise your child and your irresponsibility!

  94. Mei-Ling Says:

    Anon: This is what I “read” from your responses.

    “It’s your own damn fault you decided to open your legs knowing the consequences of sex! Nobody else can take the blame about what happened after because YOU DECIDED TO HAVE SEX. It’s ALL your fault no matter who played a part after you became pregnant.”

    Yeah, I’d say that’s a very black & white viewpoint.

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